Curse

sno · Mar 23, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I've been experimenting with both Preacher's and Cerb's listed SS/SV builds. One kills in <= 15-20 seconds, the other in 25-30 seconds. However, I seem to be always stuck waiting for Arcane Echo to recharge regardless of SS/SV techique used, which is usually 50 seconds (20 seconds duration, 30 seconds recharge). Is it my imagination, or is arcane echo's ~50-second recharge time the actual limiting factor for both build's actual kill rates?

Just my observations... nothing more...

A decent monk won't be making you kill groups that quickly. If the monk is good he'll group them up so you can kill more than one group at a time, which generally takes long enough to let AE recharge. If you're killing single groups though, then it very well may be the limiting factor, however this would be a result of your monk, and not you.

Glad to see the build working well for you

lord_shar · Mar 23, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticJast

It is if you let it be, then yes. A good necro should never keep the monk waiting, with a bit of practice you can make do without Arcane Echo, if i remember correctly SS will recharge about 1/2 way through your casting cycle and as long as you have SV on you should be ok. It's all down to practice though, give it a try next time you're with a fast monk, I'm sure they'll apprectiate not having to wait around.

What is your alternate casting sequence without arcane echo in the mix and a fresh batch of smites? I can't see the 15-scond kill still being possible without arcane echo. Sure, it's possible, since necro/monks make due without arcane echo, but such kill times are usually well above 30+ seconds. I'm finding that semi-SV-depleted smites are still quick-killable with a single SV and no arcane echo present so long as you guard SS with a cover-hex, but I can't say the same for a fully charged smite group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

A decent monk won't be making you kill groups that quickly. If the monk is good he'll group them up so you can kill more than one group at a time, which generally takes long enough to let AE recharge. If you're killing single groups though, then it very well may be the limiting factor, however this would be a result of your monk, and not you.

Glad to see the build working well for you

Thanks Sno

My observation is that both echo-SS and echo-SV can kill in sub-30 second times. However, neither build can maintain these kill speeds without arcane echo. As a result, average run smite run times seem roughly the between both techniques since they both run into Arcane Echo's ~50 second recharge limitation. Sure, the monk can pull before arcane echo fully recharges, but either way, the necro eventually has to wait for arcane echo to recharge.

I suggest running stop-watch time trials with both build types... you might see what I'm experiencing as well. I don't have a regular monk partner to group with due to my odd playing hours and semi-inactive guild, but you and Cerb are probably in a better position to run such tests.

Either way, great thread so far... After 100+ ecto's farmed, I'm still learning a lot as well.

ArcticJast · Mar 23, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

What is your alternate casting sequence without arcane echo in the mix and a fresh batch of smites? I can't see the 15-scond kill still being possible without arcane echo. Sure, it's possible, since necro/monks make due without arcane echo, but such kill times are usually well above 30+ seconds. I'm finding that semi-SV-depleted smites are still quick-killable with a single SV and no arcane echo present so long as you guard SS with a cover-hex, but I can't say the same for a fully charged smite group.

Killing the smites without Echo is very slow compared to when it is available, but i really hate waiting around, so for me it feels faster than waiting for Arcane Echo to recharge .

My casting sequence without Echo would probably be something like...

SV > SS > Suffering > Desecrate (by this time suffering will most likely have been smite hexed off) > SS > then maybe another desecrate to finish them off.

As i say though, i hate waiting around so it's down to personal preference. Waiting for Echo to recharge if definetly the safest way though, if I mess up with casting it can take quite some time to kill a smite group.

XzyluM · Mar 24, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Awesome Cerb! I just recently came back from a long break. Even though I already have my Necro set up from ages ago, I never got into 2-man smite runs, probably because my old guild disbanded when I left and I didn't feel like the random PUG. I think I'll give SS/SV a try and this guide will definately help speed things up for me. Good job.

Loralai · Mar 26, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Okay, I'm not going to go through all the pages, I hit up the first couple and said wth....who needs cover hexes? Here is my build, and it is very effective. The only time my hexes ever get smited is when I screw up by not paying attention.

N/Me

Attributes:
Illusion Magic: 11
Blood Magic: 3 (minor rune)
Soul Reaping: 7 (minor rune)
Curses: 16 (superior rune+scar pattern)

Weapon: Desert Collectors Curses Staff modded with +5 insightful and curses staff wrapping (19%)

Build:
Arcane Echo
Spiteful Spirit{e}
Suffering
Desecrate Enchantments
Conjure Phantasm
Blood Ritual
Rez Signet
Sympathetic Visage

I'm not going to explain how to defeat Aatxes, as I'm sure most people can figure that out. What I have seen as for the smite process though, makes me say O_o. (Although, I only made it through 2 pages.)

The point is to deny smites the energy to "smite hex." Most SS necros make the mistake of casting SV and immediately casting SS. Using cover hexes are just a waste of energy in my opinion. What you need to do is remove all their energy. This requires two things. 1. A monk that knows how to gather aggro properly, and 2. Patience on the necros part.

Here is the process.

When, and only when, the monk has full, good aggro of the smites, you cast SV. You then cast Arcane Echo. When SV is at or just slightly past 1/4th recharged, (about 6 seconds), you cast the first SS. Switch targets and cast another SS. When your energy reaches 10, you follow through with Desecrate Enchantments. That's it. Smites will die.

If you are using a universal recharge weapon of any kind, this will not work unless you learn how to know the safe time based on your energy. There's no need to cover hex on smites if you use SV properly. 2 spiteful's and a desecrate will take them out. I could run UW with just SV, Arcane, SS, and Desecrate. For the most part, I do. I only use Suffering and Conjure on single or double groups of Aatxes..also use suffering on graspings. [EDITED FOR CLARITY]

The point is, don't get impatient. I guarantee with this process, and the short wait for SV to be completely in effect, you will take smites down much faster than "instacasting" with cover hexes. Not only that but it is very energy efficient.

For the record, I have tried echo SV...sllllloooowww. I have tried cover hexes....energy consuming. With a good monk and this build I can do a smite run in a insanely short time.

Loralai · Mar 26, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I never mentioned using conjure phantasm on smites. I don't I use only SS, SV and desecrate on smites. Furthermore, as far as BR goes, I take it as a resource to fill a slot I have no need for. Bring any monk along with me. I can prove my effectiveness.

Quote:

I only use Suffering and Conjure on single or double groups

.

Of Aataxes..I should have been more clear.

Quote:

Here is the process.

When, and only when, the monk has full, good aggro of the smites, you cast SV. You then cast Arcane Echo. When SV is at or just slightly past 1/4th recharged, (about 6 seconds), you cast the first SS. Switch targets and cast another SS. When your energy reaches 10, you follow through with Desecrate Enchantments. That's it. Smites will die.

No conjure there.

More constant in group kills? All my kills are groups. None fall alone. Funny, I have tried your build, have you tried mine? That's what kills me...

Loralai · Mar 26, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Re-edit: The reason why I am not going to try your build is that you make it sound bad. Yes. You're telling us you bring Conjure Phantasm and Suffering, but don't use either. Then you mention good monks, and Blood Ritual. If you explained why you're even taking Conjure Phantasm and Suffering if not for smites and it actually made much sense to me, then I'll be glad to try it.

Okay let's see. On early groups of Aataxes I may or may not use suffering, for the degen, depending on how many are in the aggro. A group of 3 or less will generally catch a Suffering cast from me. Groups in numbers higher than that will not for the simple fact that I save the mana for more SS. Conjure I use if a single Aatxe is aggroed, monk dependent. Some of my regular partners are more cautious than others and do the Aatxes on the stairs apart from one another as opposed to taking the quest first. Terrorwebs in bad aggro may catch Conjure, and most certainly will get Suffering.

In the future maybe I should make a longer, more efficient model of the build. I just assume that most Necros, regardless of build have no problems on Aatxes or Graspings. I was posting mainly on Smites, as that is where most have problems.

There's nothing wrong with a monk needing BR in my opinion. All the ones I run with take Blessed signet, and I rarely use it, but like I said it's a resource. No harm in having it along if I don't need the slot in my opinion. I have no problem passing on mana to someone I am depending on to complete the task at hand. Rust wreaks havoc on Blessed, as Fear Me on mana. If something goes awry, (which it can do anytime with any build) it's good to have along.

Cerb if you have a monk I'd be more than willing to go along and and show you how the build works.

Loralai · Mar 26, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

I'm all up for it. Get your video up for next week-end, and so will I.

As for you, Loralai, I apologize if I seem closed-minded to you. However, I have good reasons to: Every skill in my bar has a very specific function, while you take three skills you won't even use.

You probably haven't read my first post correctly, I don't mention "instacasting" with cover hexes, but rather SV -> Echo -> SS -> SS -> Suffering, where Suffering plays a cover hex role, to assure SS doesn't get smited after SV wears out.

I'm definately up for a speed smite run contest to prove myself right.

The main differences between what you are doing and what I am doing is this. You say wait 3 seconds after SV, I up mine to last 17 seconds with the 11 in Illusion and I wait 6 seconds. That way all smites have lost energy, leaving me free to SS twofold with no cover hex, and follow through with Desecrate. That's why I do not need Suffering. It's necessary in your build due to the lower Illusion attributes.

I have posted what I use Conjure and Suffering for. Whereas you use it purely as a cover hex, it does, after all provide a degen function as well, and when coupled with Conjure Phantasm on small groups of Aatxes, (like the 2 stand alones on the stairs, that's -7 degen, which aids greatly in NOT having to duplicate SS all the time. That is the reason I choose those two skills.

I do not utilize high energy/negative regen weapons, well, because I don't need them. I have tried them in the past and it's just not my style of play. My timing especially with smites is based upon my energy, which is at 45, as I don't even use tats. I know that after I SV the monk and throw Arcane Echo, when my energy reaches 29, its safe to cast my SS without fear of "Smite Hex." Other than the short wait for SV to take effect, with my curses wrap which hits more often than 19% of the time in my opinion, its a matter of seconds that they die when I cast SS,SS, DE. I don't need more than 7 in soul reaping because when everything dies simultaneously, it really doesn't make sense to have more points in it. The only times things do not die on cue is when varied enemies are mixed, for example graspings and aatxes, and the energy regain from that with 7 in SR is just dandy as is. Energy issues are not a problem for me on this run, therefor it is not in MY interest to add management skills that I do not need nor will use. That is not to say that it isn't a good build for someone else.

So since I have 11 in Illusion for my SV, Conjure is the best skill for me to take in relation to the monks I go with and their patterns and the runs that I do. I was not suggesting that my build is the Alpha and Omega, I was just pointing out that there are other avenues.

And once again, I do not see the big deal about BR. It's a resource, and it saves time, and I have no problem with it.

Dark Tykane · Mar 27, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Why does everybody think suffering is a necessity?
And I put 9 in illusion so if my monk gets a group with only 2 smites (happens sometimes after they fight with colds) I can have a straight SV for up to 45 seconds by using echo even though with 2 of them I only need like 17 seconds
suffering doesnt cover smite hex for very long...

sno · Mar 27, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Tykane

Why does everybody think suffering is a necessity?
And I put 9 in illusion so if my monk gets a group with only 2 smites (happens sometimes after they fight with colds) I can have a straight SV for up to 45 seconds by using echo even though with 2 of them I only need like 17 seconds
suffering doesnt cover smite hex for very long...

Suffering can be used not only as a cover hex but also a bait hex. If you're fighting 2 smites, just use suffering first, then echo, and as soon as both smites have used smite hex, SS them both followed by a desecrate. no need for SV at all, as they'll both be dead before their smite hex is recharged. Having a "straight SV up for up to 45 seconds" is totally counterproductive if you're able to kill them in <15 seconds without it.

Unchain · Mar 27, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I use cerb's build except rather then Parasitic Bond I use Awaken the Blood, since a 41 dmg SS is awful nice. I truly prefer cerb's cover hex method and was using a cover hex for a while before I saw this build (I was using Shadow of Fear which is pretty stupid since it slows down SS kills). Thanks for the great build cerb, I love it.

Rhuobhe · Mar 28, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

With the addition of Ancestor's visage noobie SS/SV necros will be able to have their cake and eat it to (although at the cost of a skill slot)

S e X e N ™ · Mar 28, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

very well writen im glad someone took there time to write this, i personally just finished my ss/br/sv necro for UW wit 55 hp monks and this helps even thoe i knew most of it it did help thanks.

Cancel Skill · Mar 28, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

This is great, I think there are not enough guides on this website. A random build without any explanation doesn't help anyone. Cerb's guides don't only help people, it also gives everything needed to become an effective and great player. I've used his technique to Nec in UW and I've tried some others, namely echo sv. I don't understand how you guys can think that an echoed Sv can kill faster than an echoed SS. Also, most of you brought in some energy management issues: when you kill fast enough, you see your energy bar filled with Soul Reaping, period.

Finally, reading all those 6 pages of posts was long, but also painful. People are always bringing back on the table things that always seemed clear to me, and seemed even more clear in Sno or Cerb's posts. Sorry, I know I also brought back echo sv and energy talk, but it was my duty. Great job Cerb, I just can't wait to see how speechless you guys will be after seeing how good Sno and Cerb (and I) rock the UW.

Lasareth · Mar 28, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

While most of the debate started out sensibly, a few of the most recent posts have led me to cut out entirely the flexing in this thread. To the two parties involved, I suggest not attempting to convince one another of how much better a guild/person is in running a build here.

Thanks.

Unchain · Mar 29, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Wow. Owned by moderators.

Rhuobhe · Mar 29, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

One thing I'm curious about.

Since you will probably want Arcane Echo to be recharged for the next group of smites, wouldnt it be better to cast it earlier? I mean sure, you kill them faster by echoing SS, but AE recharges faster if you use it on SV, even if only marginally so.

Just a thought - sorry if this issue was already answered and I missed it.

lord_shar · Mar 29, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Hi Sno, Cerb

Glad to see this thread alive and well. Here's my latest findings:

As mentioned previously, I've been playing with both echo-SV and echo-SS build types for quite some time. I'm still using my same old skill set, but added a 20% enchant sword:

1 - Dessicrate Enchantments
2 - Sympathetic Visage
3 - Parasitic Bond
4 - Spiteful Spirit
5 - Arcane Echo
6 - Ressurrection Signet
7 - Awaken the Blood
8 - Blood Ritual

Gear presently used:
#1) Vilnar's Glove and truncheon (+5 energy > 50% life + cast mod)
#2) Vilnar's Glove and Moa Bird crystalline-skin longsword w/ 20% enchant mod (HoD sword is best, but this makes a decent cheap substitute with 20% enchant mod and 5% cast speed bonus)

Call me crazy, but this item has made a world of difference.

#3) +27/-1 blood focus and +15/-1 truncheon

Current Attributes (these are NOT optimal -- they're just what I'm using given my present gear):
Blood Magic - 10 (9 + 1, to support my +5 energy req-10 trunch!)
Curses - 16 (12 + 1 + 3)
Illusion - 7 (though 9 is optimal for 18-second SV's)
Soul Reaping - 7 (6 + 1)

I can execute either echo-SS or echo-SV with the above set-up. Cover-hexes are unnecessary so long as you manage SV correctly. A 20% enchant one-hander really optimizes this build since it uses 4 separate 10+ second duration enchantments.

Casting Sequence:
1) Cast AtB (lasts almost 45 seconds at 10 blood magic w/ 20% enchant) as monk pulls. This allows your energy to regen to full at 4 pips by the time monk returns
2) Cast SV on monk (should last 16-18 seconds with 20% enchant mod at 9 illusion)
3) Cast Arcane Echo
4) Cast SS on smite #1 at the 8 second mark (when SV recharge timer hits 3-o'clock)
5) Cast arcane echo'd SS on smite #2
6) Desicrate for flop once smites are at 20% life

Total kill time is consistently under 16-18 seconds. The reason it works well is because it still incorporates Vilnar's Glove and Awaken the Blood for 41-43 dmg Spiteful Spirits. It makes no compromises for damage output despite having only 49 total energy using Gear-Setting #2 above. If you need more energy on a pinch, just switch to #3 weapon set (79 total energy for me at 2 PiPs regen). Lastly, there's no point covering SS with another hex when the smites don't have any energy to smite-hex with.

Parasitic Bond is still useful vs. a single smite (when you want to trigger its smite hex) or protect your existing SS casts. It's also useful vs. coldfires as a life-recovery spell.

Either way, the above simplifies the whole SS/SV casting sequence and frees up a skill slot by dumping suffering. Timing is still critical, but now you can return to focusing on speed kills.

Regardless of the above, my previous assertion still seems to holds true: Nec's can only kill as fast as arcane echo charges/cycles. This is the cornerstone of the entire build, so until it charges, the necro's kill speed will be slower vs. multiple targets.

cerb · Mar 29, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

@lord_shar: If you run illusion that low, I really think you should be covering Spiteful Spirits with Suffering or something. The only way I could see SS not needing to be covered would be running a very long SV or echoing sv.

I'm not sure if you know, but Suffering is an aoe-spread hex, acting like an individual hex on each target, meaning each smite has to smite it off in order to take it off.

Also, you mentionned 6+1 illusion? (wtf), Illusion is a mesmer spell... Aside from that, I prefer faster recharge against aatxes, but against smites, I guess faster casting will do. Good job on the 20% enchant, I didn't think about that ;P

Your blood magic is very high though, and what about soul reaping? If you run a mass energy set with low soul reaping, you're going to be waiting a lot between groups..

Okay well, good post overall aside from some mistakes.

lord_shar · Mar 29, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

@lord_shar: If you run illusion that low, I really think you should be covering Spiteful Spirits with Suffering or something. The only way I could see SS not needing to be covered would be running a very long SV or echoing sv.

I agree, but the 20% enchant mod sword buys my nec 2+ additional seconds of SV that wasn't there before (+3 seconds if illusion is 9+). I'd prefer to run 9-illusion, which would boost SV to 18 seconds for a larger safety margin. Despite having only 7-illusion, SS is not getting smite-hexed away, so the goofy sword above is working well!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

I'm not sure if you know, but Suffering is an aoe-spread hex, acting like an individual hex on each target, meaning each smite has to smite it off in order to take it off.

Also, you mentionned 6+1 illusion? (wtf), Illusion is a mesmer spell... Aside from that, I prefer faster recharge against aatxes, but against smites, I guess faster casting will do. Good job on the 20% enchant, I didn't think about that ;P

Long SV = no need to cover SS... I've been testing this lately, and result are consistent with a long-duration SV. Also, 41-43 dmg SS's kill faster than 37-dmg versions thanks to AtB.

Sorry, the 6+1 was a typo (now corrected)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

Your blood magic is very high though, and what about soul reaping? If you run a mass energy set with low soul reaping, you're going to be waiting a lot between groups..

Okay well, good post overall aside from some mistakes.

I'm only running 7 Soul Reaping now (all I could spare). I'll dump more points into SR once I get a better truncheon. I only run 10-blood magic to be able to use my req-10 +5 trunch for killing nightmares. Optimum would be a req-8 version. BR lasts 14-seconds with this set-up, and the PUG monks love it (lol).

EDIT: Based on the above results, this build can REALLY use an HoD sword with 20% enchant mod. I hope they return in Factions as the NPC mentioned!